The Healthy Church Staff Podcast
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The Healthy Church Staff Podcast
The Three Conversations Before the Termination Conversation
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When Firing Feels Like An Ambush
SPEAKER_00You're sitting across your desk from someone that you're about to let go and your heart is pounding. Your heart is beating out of death. You haven't slept well in three minutes. And the worst part, they're completely blind, right? They had no idea that this was coming. And now you find that you're not just delivering bad news, but you're also delivering shock and betrayal and confusion. And honestly, I've got some bad news for you. That is on you. And we're going to talk about that today because deter because termination shouldn't be a surprise ever. And that's what we're talking about today on the podcast. If firing someone feels like an ambush, you skipped some steps, and we're going to talk about that. You're listening to the Healthy Church Staff Podcast. My name's Todd Rodz, one of the co-founders over chemistry staffing.com. Man, firing someone is tough. It's probably one of the hardest things that you're going to do in ministry. And I started the podcast by saying, hey, if you're ambushing someone or if they're not convinced that they know what this meeting is about before you call it, that's on you. And it feels like maybe I'm putting a little bit more pressure on you, but I'm really not trying to. What I'm trying to do is help you to navigate what is a really difficult conversation. And if you're flying into this meeting and they don't even know, have a clue what it's about, and they're totally blindsided, that actually, truth be told, and I need to be hard here, that is mostly your problem. Okay. So we want to talk about that here today
Conversation One The Clear Warning
SPEAKER_00because conversation one needs to be far before this meeting where you're sitting across and getting ready to let somebody go. Conversation one needs to be somewhat of a warning. You need to put this on their radar. This is where you name what you're seeing and you need to do it directly and clearly. And matter of fact, if you have not had this warning conversation, you really should not be having the I'm firing you conversation. You need to have a direct and clear conversation, not a casual, hey, let's improve this or chat as you're passing each other in the hallway. This is gonna have to be a documented, this is not working, and it needs to change conversation. They need to leave the meeting, that conversation, that first conversation meeting, knowing that this was a consequential meeting. This is not working, and it needs to change. That's what the conversation needs to be. You need to say things like, hey, your performance, Paul, in this specific area is not meeting expectations. And if it doesn't improve your role here on our team, your role here on our staff, your role here as an employee is at risk. For some people, you have to be blatantly, you just have to say it straight. And if you mince words, they won't get it. You have to be clear, you have to be concise. You're not trying to scare them, but you are trying to wake them up. Okay, and yes, you document it, the time, the date, what was said, what was agreed to. This is not about retribution, it's not about being mean, it's about being clear. So that's the conversation number one. But one warning is not enough. You can't go from having the conversation, one warning conversation on Monday and a firing on Wednesday morning. You just can't you can, but that's not the right way to do it, okay? Here's conversation number two, okay?
Conversation Two Reset Expectations
SPEAKER_00Comes probably 30 or 60 days after that first conversation. And this is where you reset the expectations, okay? 30 to 60 days after the initial warning, you're checking in, hey, did anything change? If yes, great, celebrate it, keep monitoring it, but celebrate it, but have that meeting and say, hey, I'm seeing some real improvement here. Let's keep it up, and then clarify exactly what needs to continue to improve. If there is no improvement, if there's no change, you reset the expectations, okay? And you I know it's gonna take some patience on your part. You're already 30 to 60 days in, you were ready to fire the person 30 to 60 days ago, and you didn't, you gave them that conversation where you kind of told them what the problem was, and now you're having uh a reset expectations conversation. You need to reset the expectations even more clearly. Okay, you might say something like, Hey, we talked about this. Here's what I expected to see, here's what I'm actually seeing, or here's what I'm actually not seeing. We need to see, and this is where you get even more specific. This is what we need to see, this is what our board needs to see, this is what our elders need to see, this is what I need to see. We need to see specific behavior or this kind of an outcome by this date. Okay, this is where you put the ball fully back in their court. You're not guessing anymore, you're measuring. And again, you document everything and you put that date on it. This is the date that we will sit down again, Paul, you and I, and we're gonna talk about how you're doing here. Again, document everything. And and listen, I know this feels formal, maybe even cold, but the truth is it protects everyone. Kindness, clarity actually is kindness. Ambiguity is where you get cruel. And when you skip these conversations, don't think that you're not being nice, you're just being unclear. And unclear leaders create confused, anxious teams. These conversations give the person a real chance to turn it around. But they do something else as well. They also protect the church legally and ethically. If it does end in termination, nobody can say that they didn't know that it was coming. You gave them the time, you gave them the clarity, you gave them a path to make corrections. Alright, so let's talk. We've already had the first conversation where you spell it out. The second conversation is follow up and you give either some encouragement if things are going better, or double down and give a date as to when you're going to look back at that. So, what's the third conversation?
Conversation Three The Final Chance
SPEAKER_00Third conversation, I think, should be more of I call it the final chance meeting. Okay. This one happens if nothing has changed after the reset. You sit down and you say something like, Paul, we've had two conversations about this. We agreed on what needed to happen. And unfortunately, it just hasn't. So here's what we're doing today to Paul, and I want you, I want to be very clear. I want to be very succinct with this. Paul, this is your final opportunity to make the necessary changes. And if I don't see this specific change by this date, we will be ending your employment. You're not being dramatic, but you are being direct. And this is the conversation that removes all ambiguity. If you have this conversation, the next time you meet with Paul to have that conversation that we started the podcast with today, there will be no ambiguity. Paul will know exactly why you're having that meeting and he will not be blindsided whatsoever. It's the also the conversation, that third conversation, that's going to protect your integrity because if you do have to terminate, if you do have to fire somebody, you can look Paul straight in the eye and say, hey, look, we talked about this three times, and I really did bend over backwards to give you every chance that you could have. And you know what? They might not be happy about it. Chances are they won't be happy about it. They might be angry about it, but you know what? They'll know it's true. They'll know that this is not the first meeting, and they will not be blindsided. They might say that they're blindsided out of their herd, but
Why Leaders Avoid Hard Talks
SPEAKER_00there, they won't be blindsided. So here's what a lot of leaders miss when it comes to firing somebody off of your team. We avoid first conversation because a lot of us just we're optimists and we hope that it'll just get better on its own. So we avoid that first conversation. We avoid the second conversation because you know what, we already said it once, we don't want to seem overly harsh. And then we avoid the third conversation because honestly, at that point, we're just exhausted. We just want it to be over. So we strump jump straight to the termination, and you know what? Because you've not done the first and the second and the third conversation, it gets messy, it gets emotional, it gets potentially legal. The person feels attacked, the team feels confused, you feel terrible all because you didn't have the courage to be clear earlier. Now, this doesn't mean you lack compassion, it means that you owe them some honesty. Maybe it's a worship pastor that's chronically late and unprepared, or a children's pastor who won't collaborate with the rest of the team. Maybe it's an executive pastor who's creating conflict, it seems like just everywhere that they go. You've noticed it, others have noticed it, but no one has actually said it. And that can be a drift. The three conversations stop any of that drift that might be going on. They turn the I've had a bad feeling about this into here's exactly what needs to change.
Document It Or Do Not Terminate
SPEAKER_00And that's how you're going to lead with integrity. So here's your bottom line for today. If you can't document, if you can't document it, you can't terminate it. All right? Put that in the back of your head. This is a great saying to remember whenever you're in this position where you're considering letting somebody go. If you can't document it, you can't terminate it. So start having those hard conversations now. Those conversations that you know you need to have, start those now. And that will get you well on your way. Leading people well means telling them the truth. It means telling them the truth when they're doing a great job. It means telling them the truth when things need to change, even when it's hard. All right,
Getting Help With The Plan
SPEAKER_00this is something that we advise churches on all the time, and every single case is different. Every single employee is different, every single employment situation and firing is different. And if you just need somebody to talk to, somebody that can listen to your story, maybe help you come up with this plan, maybe help you plan that first and second and third conversation, maybe walk you through what might happen when you actually have the meeting to let somebody go to terminate some employment. What do you need to watch out for? If you need to have that conversation, I'd love to have that conversation with you, see if there's a way that we can work together on coming up with a really good plan for a really hard conversation. All right, that's it for today. Went a little long today, but this is an important topic that I hope this has been helpful to you. Reach out to me anytime, podcast at chemistry staffing.com. If you want to have that conversation, reach out to me. Schedule some time on my calendar. I'd love to have the opportunity to discuss this with you. All right, that's it for today. We'll be back tomorrow, right here on the Healthy Church Staff Podcast. Have a break.
